Transcript of Episode 56, with Jim Buxton

Scott Glovsky:

Welcome to Trial Lawyer Talk. I’m Scott Glovsky, and I’m your host for this podcast where we speak with some of the best trial lawyers in the United States. We simply have great lawyers tell great stories from cases that had a profound impact on them. So let’s get started. I’m very glad to be hanging out with my pal Jim Buxton, who’s a wonderful lawyer, wonderful human being, super talented guy, and Jim practices in Oklahoma. He does criminal and civil work. Jim, thanks for being with us.

Jim Buxton:

Thanks for having me.

Scott Glovsky:

Can you share with us a story of a case that had a profound impact on you?

Jim Buxton:

Stephanie and TJ Chartney came to me about four years ago with a problem that I don’t know how I would’ve dealt with had it happened to me. They were a young couple and their home had been destroyed and nobody would help them. I believe they’d been to a couple of lawyers before me and they were rejected. Said, “your case ain’t good enough,” or whatever it was. I remember developing this relationship with them. I came and I heard their story. As we grew closer, just like any relationship, like ours, ours didn’t start off as friends. Hell, we didn’t know each other. But over the course of time, Stephanie and TJ we would meet and talk and develop this relationship, and I’d go to their home, or what was left of it.

Their house was destroyed by sewage from a city government, and I’d go sit in it with them, and smell it, and feel it, what it felt like. We developed this real close personal bond, which is good, but by the time we get to trial, she looks over at me right when we’re waiting for the jury and she says, “I don’t care anymore.” And at first I was just hit like, “What do you mean you don’t care about the outcome?”

Scott Glovsky:

Reverse roles with her.

Jim Buxton:

She says, “Jim, what you just did for us …”

Scott Glovsky:

You are her.

Jim Buxton:

Yes. She said, “Jim, what you just did for us, who cares what the outcome is? It doesn’t matter. All we wanted was somebody to hear us and fight for us.” And getting out of her role, she broke down in tears, she and her husband, and we’re from Oklahoma, and it’s hard for Oklahomans to ask for help, in my opinion. We’re just doing ourselves kind of people, get through any kind of situation. We don’t need anybody backing our asses up. And to realize that all of my clients want is to be heard and for somebody to fight for them had a profound impact on me. I was like, “Okay.” So, we’re waiting and the verdict comes back and it’s a really good verdict. So, everything’s happy and the story ends well. Then, the appeal comes and the case, part of it, gets where we have to go try it.

So, I’m recommending that we probably should try and settle the case, and she goes, “Jim, do whatever you want. I told you already, you’ve already satisfied my needs.” And so, that’s probably the closest connection that I’ve ever had with a client. That story of them and the trust that they had in me, and just believing in me because I heard them, it was profound.

Scott Glovsky:

So, take us more into the details of the story.

Jim Buxton:

Of the story of the case, or the story of-

Scott Glovsky:

Yes.

Jim Buxton:

Well, we do a bunch of government cases where I sued the government for failing to maintain their utilities. Literally, when things go wrong with the sewage line, it blows it like a fire hose into your house. Imagine a fire hose of sewer with turds and every unimaginable thing you could imagine, and the sewage system being blown all through your home. Who do you have to sue? The government. And so, maybe what I think is how they arrived at me and feel the way they felt about me was because, if I reverse roles with them, it’s the rejection, right? Not only the betrayal of what the city did, by pumping their house full of raw sewage and not cleaning it up, but then, they tell them, “Turn in a tort claim, we’ll take care of you.”

And you go when you fill out the form just like they want, and then they never hear anything again because the statute says, it’s deemed denied if you don’t hear from them. So, then they wait and they wait and they wait, and then they eventually call a lawyer. Most lawyers won’t handle cases against the government, at least going on the offense against them. So, they get rejected and rejected until they can find us. We don’t take every case, but we try to help the ones that we can. And so, that’s what is just so profound, Scott, and I don’t know if I’m answering your question the right way. But that’s how my connection was, that they just … my eye, it’s on a prize that’s not the same.

Scott Glovsky:

This sense of rejection and needing to be heard, where does that come from in Jim Buxton’s life?

Jim Buxton:

Lots of places. I oftentimes feel that I’m not heard, and it came from being the youngest in my family, I think. From just the world we live in where nobody takes the time to look somebody in the eye and just listen to them and connect. I yearned for that. I don’t know about you, but I yearned for a legitimate connection. I don’t know if it’s so much as being heard, like I have a lot of problems with listening. Don’t listen because there’s so much going on in the world, so much chatter and chaos. I think it’s just so refreshing when you have just a connection. I think that’s what I mean by being heard. Like I can hear you right now and you haven’t said a word.

Scott Glovsky:

So, behind that there seems to be a loneliness.

Jim Buxton:

Being a trial lawyer is lonely. You’re a trial lawyer. Are you lonely?

Scott Glovsky:

Absolutely.

Jim Buxton:

Yeah. I feel alone oftentimes when I’m surrounded by other lawyers. Oftentimes, I don’t feel hurt, and if I look really deep inside, is that my need? Is that my ego? Probably.

Scott Glovsky:

Do you think lawyers ever feel alone in the courtroom?

Jim Buxton:

Yeah. Do you?

Scott Glovsky:

I guess the better question is, do lawyers ever not feel alone in the courtroom?

Jim Buxton:

Right. I was trying to think. I was saying this the other day to somebody, I said, “This is how I know that I’m supposed to be a trial lawyer. Like every time I do it, I’m nervous. I’m scared. All these feelings and all this stuff comes up.” But if you keep doing it over and over again, those things don’t stop. I would think surely by now this would be over with, but it’s not. But when you say alone in the courtroom, what I think about is being in the zone, you know what I’m saying?

When you’re totally in the zone, you’re alone, and you hear about it like, and maybe it’s because there’s no cell phones in court. There’s nobody able to get ahold of you, right? Unless you reach out to them. There’s a calm quiet to that chaos for me. I feel alone, but I also feel, if I’m really dialed in, that that aloneness makes me or allows me the gift to make a connection with each person, right? And that’s something I try and do every time.

Scott Glovsky:

Well, if we think about jurors who live in the same world that we do, on the same Facebook and social media, and bombardment of information, who must also feel alone.

Jim Buxton:

Yeah, it’s a great point.

Scott Glovsky:

So, how does that relate to connection with the jurors?

Jim Buxton:

Well, for me, if I’m truly alone or feeling that way, or scared, or confused, which I am every time. It took me a long time to call myself a trial lawyer. I didn’t think I tried enough cases. Like I told you, I figured I’d be through the nervousness, the awkwardness, the screw-ups by now, and I’m not. But that’s what connects me with jurors. If I reverse roles with the juror, I’m like, “This is insane. I’m being pushed around like cattle. I’m having to make friends immediately, all these people.” It’s just a whole awkward process. Where else other than your home perhaps does a man walk in in a robe and tell you what to do?

It’s a weird situation. We don’t have somebody here in the corner typing down everything that we’re saying. We don’t have some lady with a, what looks like a box of Kleenex, pulling random names out of it. It’s a unique environment in and of itself, that while being alone is scary, you should welcome that aloneness. Now that I’m thinking about it, you should welcome that aloneness, because it gives you a chance to connect.

Scott Glovsky:

And if we assume that the jurors are just like us longing for real connection, and to be heard, and to be listened to, it sounds like there may be some opportunity there.

Jim Buxton:

Well, think about this, and I don’t know if you do this in your trials, but if you’re really listening to a juror, you will automatically connect what they need with what you already have in your case, right?

Scott Glovsky:

Right.

Jim Buxton:

So, the cases I look back on where I’ve had some really good results, where I’m like taking pictures not only with my clients but with the jurors, because we are a group, and we are so proud of the justice that we’ve done, it’s amazing. And it’s because you just sit there and are in the moment with them. You have to feel connected to somebody, right? If they’re listening to you and they’re giving you what you need, how can you not … It’s kind of hard to be disagreeable with somebody like that, wouldn’t you think?

Scott Glovsky:

Absolutely. Why don’t we talk about the concept of struggle in the courtroom? Because we’ve all been there where-

Jim Buxton:

Finally, a topic that I can talk about with some competence.

Scott Glovsky:

And myself as well had some experience where you’re in that moment and the judge says something and you freeze. You don’t know what to do next.

Jim Buxton:

Yeah. When the panic, sheer panic, sets in. Maybe he could see me getting triggered after this from … I can still see it. I’m standing there in my closing argument with these papers rolled up in my hands like I’m about to beat a dog with them. I’m so just out of my mind. Scott, I’d like to tell you this was 10 years ago, but it wasn’t. It was two years ago, and I don’t even know what it was particularly that I said that caused the huge objection, and the judge not only sustained the objection but to stand up and go, “Mr. Buxton,” and this is in my second closing, I’m a minute or two from being out of there. And I froze and went, “Okay, this is familiar territory for you.”

Dialed-in, like the training we received here at the Trial Lawyers College. When all hell’s breaking loose and you panic, you dial in, you get calm, and I just turned. I’m not in the military. I did a military type turn, looked to the judge, looked him dead in the eyes, bowed to him and apologized, and gave him the power and the respect that he needed and said, “I’m sorry. I’m sorry, I’ll straighten up.” And he said, “Okay.” I just turned around and we got back to it, and I left and I was humiliated. Well actually, it was in the case that I was just telling you about TJ and Stephanie Chartney.

I was humiliated because I thought I blew it right there at the end, and I could’ve, but I think the way that I handled it saved me.

Scott Glovsky:

Well, let’s talk about that for a minute, because lots of lawyers think when you’re in that moment of struggle and you don’t know what to do, and everybody in the courtroom can see that you’re scared, how does that impact the jury?

Jim Buxton:

Well, they lose confidence in you. If you try and hide the struggle, then you’re hiding something from them. I don’t know about you, but I don’t have very good connections, or I don’t get very good results with people that think I’m bullshitting them.

Scott Glovsky:

Yeah. Well, let’s back up. Let’s assume you don’t hide it. In other words, you’re stuck and you’re in a struggle. You don’t know what the heck to do, and you’re standing there and-

Jim Buxton:

And you show them the struggle and they’re like, “Is this guy even a lawyer, or licensed to practice?”

Scott Glovsky:

Or, the opposite, that by having that struggle, you are connecting with the jury because you’re real. And as long as you’re not trying to BS them, but you’re being open, and honest, and transparent-

Jim Buxton:

Yes. It’s something I think that does connect you with the jury, right? But at the same time, and I think that’s what the training does with the Trial Lawyers College, I know this isn’t about the Trial Lawyers College. But I think that you must have to have a huge ego if you think that you are not going to struggle in a jury trial. So, I think it also starts with being self-aware. What happens to Jim Buxton when he struggles? A lot of times, if my struggle gets out of control, it turns into frustration, and anger, and frustration and anger are not emotions that jurors respond to when they’re not ready for them.

However, if you stay calm and that frustration or that struggle turns into something beautiful, then it has the opposite effect. It just creates so much respect for you as a person. It gives you leadership qualities because you’re not panicking in the moment, right? I think seeing the struggle is one thing, seeing how you respond to it is another, right? So, there’s all these little opportunities, and I think for a trial lawyer, most of it, that jury’s made their decisions, on aren’t the words that are being said or the facts that are being spoken.

It’s as simple as, you’re walking into a high school that you’ve never been to and you see all these people. If I’m reversing roles with the juror, which lunch table am I going to sit at? There’s only two choices in there. Which table do you want your juror to sit at? Well, sure, you would think maybe a juror want to sit with the smart guy that knows everything, or I don’t know, the cool guy. Or, is it somebody that has mutual respect from everybody, from the judge, to the janitor, treats everybody equally, the same, learns about them in voir dire. What do you need? What is it?

Well, when’s the last time you were in a trial juror didn’t say to you, “I don’t want to be here and we better be here for a good reason, and I’m ready to get out of here.” Well, if you’re struggling out there and it takes you three to four hours per witness, that struggle is not endearing you to the jury.

Scott Glovsky:

Yeah, let’s talk for a moment about control, because when I’m preparing for trial and starting trial, I tend to put a tremendous amount of pressure on myself, worried about all the things that could go wrong, and the reality is, in a trial, we’re very little in control.

Jim Buxton:

Yeah. You have control of nothing. You have control of what evidence you want to try to get in, as a plaintiff’s lawyer. That’s why I love people who go, “Who do you want on your jury?” I’m like, well, like Rafe Forman says, “I want somebody who’s going to vote for me, right off the bat, preferably without even having to ask me a question.” But I’m not going to get that, right? So, for me, what I do is I’m a big believer in energy and power of intention, and you can create problems if you’re thinking about problems. You can create solutions, just like you’re thinking about solutions, or feeling solutions.

Every trial lawyer will tell you, you got to be able to think on your feet. You got to be able to deal in the calm, and the chaos, and the question, I guess, I lost it.

Scott Glovsky:

Yeah, no, absolutely. One thing that I found helpful is acknowledging that there’s so much that is out of my control in the courtroom, that in a way it enables me to be more comfortable without putting all the pressure on myself.

Jim Buxton:

Right. When I think about control, is that what we’re saying in the courtroom? What are you trying to control? Do you ask yourself, what is it? What am I trying to do? You can control a lot of what goes on in a courtroom, right? You can get rid of a lot of objections by being intentional, purposeful, you’re that way. You’re very intentional, very purposeful. I bet that serves you well in court. You’re going to eliminate a lot of problems. But then, once that jury is sworn in, it’s group time.

Even before that, right? Because they’re always looking, even everybody in my jurisdiction, they call a hundred people in and then they call 18 out of the box, or 20-something out of the box. Then, if one gets kicked off, then they bring one from the audience back in. Everybody’s always watching, judging all the time. Well for me, I’m like, “Well, let’s just build a group.” Then, all I have to do is get them to follow me at the end. So, the pressure we put on ourselves as trial lawyers is ridiculous, and it’s a lead vest. It’s like wearing a lead vest when you’re going swimming, the pressure, the expectations, all of that, it’s crippling, for me at least.

I try to be open and understand that, “Hey, we’re just trying to get through this, all of us.” I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t think you were going to come sit with me at my table. Let me show you what all we got going on over here. Look, every time, if you’re listening, you’ve met every person there is out there, you’ve met them, you know them, because we’re all the same. We’re all the same. So, you know what they need. If you get out of your head, you can give it to them.

Scott Glovsky:

When our role is that of service, is that of caring for the client, and caring for the jury, and it’s not about us, it’s about who it truly is about. It’s where, at least for me, my creativity and spontaneity can flourish. But with the anxiety, I think your analogy that it’s a lead vest, is just perfect.

Jim Buxton:

It is. You got to get out of your head. I use this example. Are you married?

Scott Glovsky:

I am.

Jim Buxton:

Do you remember when you met your wife?

Scott Glovsky:

I do.

Jim Buxton:

Where is the checklist that you had from that night?

Scott Glovsky:

I did not have a checklist.

Jim Buxton:

You didn’t have a, I got to ask her name. I got to know X, Y, and Z in interview. Or did you just go, “Oh.” You were awestruck, I imagine.

Scott Glovsky:

I kind of had some animal instincts going on at the moment.

Jim Buxton:

Right, you had tons of feelings, I imagine, that if you were triggered one way, it could have led to a different direction if you were pre-thinking things. But I imagine if it was like … with my wife, I was just in the moment, any great relationship that I’ve developed, I didn’t need a script to do it. It’s because I’m in it with you, and it’s like moments during this conversation. Sure, it’d be great to have a list of topics and all of that, but to have a great conversation and to really connect with somebody, all the elements will get met.

You’ll meet their needs, and the needs are unique in every interaction, in every relationship, in every circumstance, right? So, when you say roles, that’s huge, right? What’s your role? If a trial lawyer can figure out that question, you’re going to be a hell of a good trial lawyer. Because you got to look at yourself, what’s my role? Well, standing in front of a jury, my role is to be the leader in this courtroom. When I go home, my role is to be a father and a husband. When I go to the office, my role is to be a businessman, a counselor, all these different hats that we wear.

If you can know your role, what’s your role in this group, then you could be aware of yourself. Then, you can have awareness for the other, and if you look back on great relationships and great connections you make with people, you’ll look back and you’ll see that, roles and understanding your role.

Scott Glovsky:

It just occurred to me that one of the beauties of this podcast is the phenomenal trial lawyers that I talk with, like yourself, all talk about what’s meaningful in life, and very little of it has to do with lawyering. It’s all who they are and, of course, it’s translated into lawyering because they’re real people in the courtroom. But they’re showing the feelings, the caring, the loving, the vulnerability, and translating that just from their personhood to the personhoods of the jurors and their clients.

Jim Buxton:

Right. Like just when I’m talking to you about like, do you remember the first time you met your wife, your face lit up. It’s doing it again right now, because it takes you to a place that you’re just … your energy changes because of that emotion. My trainer told me, and I never thought of it, emotions are nothing more than energy in motion, right? Self-awareness, roles, energy. I think that is what satisfies you in life. If you can match somebody’s energy, that’s a connection. I don’t know. I used to think that life was about certain things, about acquiring status, money, things, all this stuff.

That’s why I wanted to be a lawyer, but for me, being a trial lawyer is about being in the places where you can share experiences with people and connections, true connections. Then, you’re like, “Well, let me tell you about this time, this experience.” For me to get to talk about an experience with my wife, or my kids, or with my dad, it’s just changing my voice right now. It gives me a certain gift when I get to be able to tap into those emotions, and people all have them. They’ll see me, they’ll go, “Oh, well, huh.” They’ll tap into an emotion just because I am, and we’re a culmination of, right now, I am right now, a culmination of the experiences that I’ve had with others, including you, and it makes me who I am right now.

Now, I’m sure I could be somebody different tomorrow, down the road, and I hope I am, I hope I get better and better. But those are from personal connections. I can’t get those with the TV, or airplane, or whatever bullshit it is. At the end of the day, when it’s all over, I want to think that my life had great experiences, and so far, all these experiences have involved people, real human beings I’ve made connections with. That’s what makes the experience so great, and that’s why I love being a trial lawyer. I make that connection with my client. It makes it rewarding. It makes it satisfying on an energy soul level.

Scott Glovsky:

Wow. You’ve shared a lot of wisdom with us. This has been truly a pleasure in getting to sit across this table and look into your eyes, and feel your wisdom and your caring. It’s been a real treat. So, Jim-

Jim Buxton:

Well, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it, and I admire you a lot, and I’ll tell you why, you’re committed. You’re committed a hundred percent every time. It makes me commit. I match your energy.

Scott Glovsky:

Thank you for those kind words, it’s a function of us. It’s a function of the group, and our connection. That’s the lesson that you shared with us, one of the great lessons you’ve shared with us today, and I’m really proud that our listeners have learned about connection from you in this beautiful way.

Jim Buxton:

I hope so, too. So, thanks for having me.

Scott Glovsky:

Thank you, pal.

Jim Buxton:

All right.

Scott Glovsky:

Thank you for joining us today for Trial Lawyer Talk. If you like the show, I’d really appreciate if you could give us a good review on iTunes, and I’d love to get your feedback. You can reach me at www.scottglovsky.com, that’s S-C-O-T-T-G-L-O-V-S-K-Y.com, and I’d love to hear your feedback. You can also check out the book that I published called Fighting Health Insurance Denials, A Primer For Lawyers, that’s on Amazon. I put the book together based on 20 years of suing health insurance companies for denying medical care to people, and it provides a general outline of how to fight health insurance denials. Have a great week, and we’ll talk to you in the next episode.