Transcript of Episode 51, with Nancy Iler

Scott Glovsky:

Welcome to Trial Lawyer Talk. I’m Scott Glovsky, and I’m your host for this podcast where we speak with some of the best trial lawyers in the United States. We simply have great lawyers tell great stories from cases that had a profound impact on them. So let’s get started.

I’m very happy to be sitting with a wonderful lawyer. A talented, courageous, tough, sensitive, and creative trial lawyer, Nancy Iler, who practices in Ohio. And is truly one of my mentors, and someone I’ve learned so much from. Nancy, thanks for being with us.

Nancy Iler:

Love to be with you, Scott. Thank you so much for that kind introduction.

Scott Glovsky:

Can you share with us a story of a case that had a profound impact on you?

Nancy Iler:

I would love to. I had the privilege of representing a young mother whose two children were the victims of lead-based poisoning. Their public housing unit had lead based paint in it and despite her repeated requests to management, of the peeling paint, actually flaking down onto the stove and to the countertops, they would not repair her unit. Eventually, both of her daughters tested high for lead in their bloodstream and testing showed that both of them suffered brain damage, as a result of that.

When I met this young woman, I was so impressed with how strong she was and what an advocate she was for her children. Even though the case had some real legal obstacles to it, it was hard to say no to her. Despite not completing high school, she had an incredible sense of justice for her children and really stood up for herself to the housing authorities. You know, the managers, who kind of tried to brush her off saying it’s not a big deal, we’ll get it repaired. Eventually she took a video camera and went through the unit and videotaped the damage and the danger that her daughters had experienced.

Scott Glovsky:

So how did you approach discovering the story of the case?

Nancy Iler:

Well after talking to her, I knew that her deposition was going to be a real challenge for her. The defense attorney was a “nice guy” and I knew that he would try to talk to her in such a way that she would see him as a friend. So I worked with her extensively to get her ready for her deposition. We worked hard and she was very open to it. I think it gave her the confidence, not only to give a deposition, but some point we went to private mediation in the case, and I think as I watched her enter the mediation, enter the office, you know it was in a huge high rise, big defense law firm. Walked into the conference room, and it’s a mahogany table, you know, it looks like almost glass it’s so shiny. There’s 24 leather chairs around the table. All of course meant to be very intimidating to my client. This was a room that she would only be invited to maybe clean or vacuum in another instance, but here she was standing up for her children and for herself, in a very intimidating environment. I learned a lot from her that day.

Scott Glovsky:

Tell me more about that.

Nancy Iler:

I think watching her bear witness to her children’s story and her efforts, was really inspiring to me. I also watched her looking at the defense attorney as I was telling her story. I was struck by how much bearing witness to her efforts to protect her children, the trust that she had in this authority who was supposed to be taking care of her unit. Then that sense of betrayal, you know. The housing authority was supposed to provide a safe environment for her and her children and knowing that their failures to repair the unit is going to cause such pain and suffering to her children. It was really something.

Scott Glovsky:

And how did you work with her to prepare her for the deposition and the mediation?

Nancy Iler:

Well, I think my biggest concern was that she would shut down. That she would not be able to tell her story, and I thought it was important for her to speak at the mediation about the impact that this was having on her and her children. I felt as though she would be intimidated by the setting and certainly the people involved, because she didn’t graduate from high school. That these were professional people and she was not. So I worked with her a lot with reversing roles with the defense attorney and also herself, to explore her biggest fears about the questions she would be asked and the things she would be asked about.

Scott Glovsky:

Can you give us a piece of that through reversing roles with your client?

Nancy Iler:

Well, I asked her “Tomorrow, what’s the question that you’re most afraid of?” And she said, “I’m afraid they’re going to blame me, that I should have done more. That I should have moved out. That I should have maybe moved in with my mother. And that the fact that I didn’t do enough, was the reason my children were harmed.”

So, it was working with her, not even the questions being asked, but just getting her comfortable. We actually went to, she was comfortable in my office, but I went to somebody else’s office to try to sensitize her to being able to tell her story anywhere.

Scott Glovsky:

So what happened next in the story?

Nancy Iler:

There’s something I didn’t mention before. I think she initially had a hard time trusting me. And that’s something that we had to, I mean I had to earn her trust and that took some time.

Scott Glovsky:

How did you do that?

Nancy Iler:

I think once again, I think being a good listener really helped. You know I try not to sit across. I learned a lot and still learn a lot from that listening exercise that we teach at the college. You know, I always try to sit on the same side of the table as my client, as opposed to across. I try not to speak to clients in my office at my desk which is all kind of imposing and have them sitting across from me. I try to set the environment for good listening in such a way where I’m side by side. And that I really try to take my time and really listen to what’s being said. Of course, we know sometimes what’s not being said, is the most powerful thing.

Scott Glovsky:

So what happened next?

Nancy Iler:

At the mediation, she sat and told her story in such a way that I think it gave her kind of experience that she’s never had before. Just to stand up for herself and to stand up for her children. Against professional people and corporations in a setting that she was not comfortable in. I think gave her a sense of integrity and also I think went a long way to make her understand that it wasn’t her fault, of what happened to her children. I was really inspired by her courage to stand up for her children, not just in the years before the lawsuit was filed, but also throughout the lawsuit.

It was certainly a very … they had subpoenaed her records from prior employment. Stuff that had really nothing to do with the case, all in an effort to really intimidate her. As I was watching her tell her story, in this high-rise office building at this big mahogany table, I was really inspired by her courage. And really, it also taught me the power of bearing witness to someone’s story. I think she gained a lot of pride and sense that she did take care of her family.

So those were things that I hadn’t really anticipated. When you bring a lawsuit, sometimes you think about the result in terms of dollar and cents, and how the children’s lives would be changed. But I didn’t really factor in how her life would be changed and how her confidence in herself as a mother, and as a protector had really been restored.

Scott Glovsky:

And this sense of empowering her and fighting for her and having her story witnessed … This strength for this fight, where does that come from in Nancy Iler?

Nancy Iler:

Well, we’re sitting out here in Wyoming and a lot of that strength comes from being out here. And also from the pleasure and privilege I have with getting to know people like yourself and working in collaboration. Not just the trial lawyers’ couch, but the regionals and those kinds of things. Or local working groups. To be able to collaborate and create with like-minded lawyers continues to inspire me.

Scott Glovsky:

Let’s go a step deeper. A chair back, as we say. Where does this come from?

Nancy Iler:

Well, I think it comes from that need to matter. To be seen. You know, to make a difference. Like my client made a difference in her family’s life and in her daughters’ lives. You know, I’ve strived to make a difference in my clients’ lives and hopefully improve some of the systems, whether it be in a nursing home or in this particular case public housing.

Scott Glovsky:

What are the greatest gifts that you received through your work?

Nancy Iler:

Once again, making a difference. I mean I have had, and I suspect a lot of my colleagues have had, the experience where after a case has been successfully concluded that I’ve had risk managers come up to me and say, come up to my clients and say, “Things have changed as a result of this lawsuit. We do things differently now.” And that is not only inspiring to my clients, but also myself.

Scott Glovsky:

How do you deal with the pain of losing?

Nancy Iler:

Well, that is a blessing and the curse of this profession that we’ve chosen. When you can do everything right and lose, and it’s those losses that we all carry around and take out and re-examine. Think, “What if things were different?” But I think that it’s the recognition that I can only control so much. And sometimes I cannot control the outcome. But certainly going back to what I said earlier, sometimes having your story told in such a way that has spoken your truth, whether it’s a courtroom or in a deposition, that is a gift to a client that sometimes they don’t realize until after it’s done. But to have somebody stand up for them can really be inspiring.

Scott Glovsky:

And you teach trial lawyers all over the country and give a tremendous amount of your time to helping others. Where does that come from, that caring?

Nancy Iler:

It’s a privilege. In this profession, the work that we do is constantly in motion, and it allows me to be creative. It allows me to be intellectual. It allows me to really feel like I’m making a difference. But it can be really harsh. It can suck the soul out of you sometimes, because you care so much. I think when I talk to other people here, and realize they’re going through the same things and they have the same struggles and the same losses, it’s inspiring.

Scott Glovsky:

You’re a phenomenal listener. You go out of your way to make sure that other people around you feel heard, feel that they matter and feel that they’re significant. Where does that come from?

Nancy Iler:

I think it certainly is learned. I think that I realized that most people know what they need to do, and I think honoring the wisdom within each other can be the greatest gift.

Scott Glovsky:

What advice do you have for other people, other lawyers out there, who are struggling with the stress of the job? Struggling with not feeling good enough and so focused on themselves, quite frankly, that they’re not able to look beyond themselves and really listen and connect with other people? What advice do you have for folks like that?

Nancy Iler:

I think self-care and realizing how much this work can take out of us is really an important recognition. So I try to do that myself. I try to model that for my friends and my kids and my colleagues. I try to have a hobby. Sometimes it’s not always easy. I try to find some kind of creative outlet at some point, to feed my soul a bit, that is not like my work. I am so privileged to have so many close friends and colleagues, so I reach out a lot. Share my experiences and ask for others to share theirs back. Sometimes I find that what I’m experiencing isn’t all that unique. That lawyers who I admire and look up to are struggling with the same thing, and that really helps.

Scott Glovsky:

What type of creative outlets do you use?

Nancy Iler:

Well, I was just privileged enough to work at Grad One, and we did some dancing there which is something I’ve always wanted to do. I found that that was really something of interest to me, so I’m now looking for a modern dance class to be part of. I’ve struggled with taking pictures over the years. I joke that I’ve taken about 5,000 pictures and have printed out about two. I’m hoping that will change. But just finding something. I don’t necessarily feel like I’m looking for perfection in my hobby, but I am looking for something different than what I do every day.

Scott Glovsky:

What advice do you have for young lawyers out there who are just starting out? Or maybe not starting out, but want to get better and grow?

Nancy Iler:

I think that the Trial Lawyers College has made all the difference in my career. Not only in my career but my personal growth. The message that it all begins with you, I think is the message that really resonates with me. I think to honor your own uniqueness and wisdom within yourself and to apply that to this great profession is really something. I would encourage young lawyers to look beyond the elements of a case or the business part of the practice, which can take so much out of you and enjoy your craft. Find the way that you can make it uniquely yours.

Scott Glovsky:

Well, Nancy I want to thank you for not only guiding me and teaching me so much, and teaching lawyers around the country for many years, but for being a phenomenal lawyer, for helping your clients, for changing the nursing home industry to make it safer. Finally, for taking the time to share your wisdom with us.

Nancy Iler:

Well Scott, I love these podcasts, I listen to all of them, so to be asked to participate has been a great pleasure of mine, and I thank you for your friendship and this opportunity.

Scott Glovsky:

Thank you.

Thank you for joining us today for Trial Lawyer Talk. If you like the show, I’d really appreciate if you could give us a good review on iTunes, and I’d love to get your feedback. You can reach me at www.scottglovsky.com, that’s s-c-o-t-t, g-l-o-v-s-k-y dot com. And I’d love to hear your feedback. You can also check out the book that I publish called Fighting Health Insurance Denials, A Primer For Lawyers. That’s on Amazon. I put the book together based on twenty years of suing health insurance companies for denying medical care to people. It provides a general outline of how to fight health insurance denials.

Have a great week, and we’ll talk to you in the next episode.